Any truth to the argument that prior to the Babylonian exile judaism was polytheistic?
I believe the argument comes from looking at the original Hebrew text, but since my Hebrew is a bit shoddy (by which I mean non existant aside from prayers I repeat but don't understand) I could be wrong.
What is your view on monotheism's influence on Judaism as a religion and culture?
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Re: Jewish Polytheism
Mon, September 19, 2005 - 6:10 PMPrior to the development of Monotheism, EVERYONE was essentially Polytheistic, including the Hebrew tribes which developed into Jews. Therefore, it only makes sense that the Hebrews would have some history of their prior beliefs...and of their transition from Polytheism into Monotheism. Christianity is the same way. Duh.
A) You are NOT the expert you think you are,
OR...
B) You already know this fact, and are trolling for
arguements and seeking to humiliate people who have
a few misconceptions. -
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Re: Jewish Polytheism
Mon, September 19, 2005 - 10:43 PMAsking about "monotheism's influence on Judaism" is like asking about air's influence on breathing.
The crystalline moment of creation and lasting essence of Judaism is monotheism -- the recognition of Divine that exists outside the natural realm. Why do you think the Shema is called the "watchword of our faith" -- the one, only and inescapable true creed? Notice how it doesn't say "uhm, Gd is kinda one..."?
Someone more knowledgeable that I will be able to explain how it is that we still use the word, Elohim -- an apparent plural -- but I think it's safe to treat that as a historical anomaly .... -
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 9:25 AM
I totally agree Judaism is monotheistic of course.
I'm just wondering how it came about to be that way since some scholars assert Judaism started out as polytheistic.
Why did it become monotheistic and when and what does this monotheism say about abrahamic (since xianity and islam are also arguably monotheistic depending on your persuasion) psychology?
Why go from many to one?
I seriously don't know, so this isn't a rhetorical question. -
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 9:26 AM
..and certainly jews more than any other religion really had to fight to assert this monotheism. Hard.
By the time xianity came around afaik the groundwork was already laid.
So why fight so hard for it instead of evolving the religion and saying ok ok, let's all be friends and polytheistic.
Why was this so important? -
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Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 11:04 AMSo why fight so hard for it instead of evolving the religion and saying ok ok, let's all be friends and polytheistic.
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one reason is that it can be aurgued that the evoultion of religion is towards monotheism and away from polytheism.
In fact, you youself state taht it WAS polytheits. so by the standard use of evoultion, going BACK to polythesim would in fact be de-evoultion.
Why was this so important
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Cause they belive it to be true. Why is it so important for anyone to establish what they know as truth, to BE truth? Why do i fight so hard to keep creationism out of schools? cause truth is truth, no matter who likes it. And if someone or a group of someone bleives god is a singular entity, of course they will fight for that.
this last line, suggests why some find you trollish. "evoloving" the religion is a rather loaded statment, don't you think? -
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Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 11:55 AM>> Cause they belive it to be true. Why is it so important for anyone to establish what they know as truth, to BE truth? <<
So do you think truth is a belief ? Then there can be many truths.
An old Chinese saying comes to mind - "What comes together, separates. What separates comes together."
It relates to cycles and while we may be in one phase now, we will be in another phase later, and then come back to this phase even later. -
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Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 1:05 PMI think that for most of us "truth" is belife, yes.
Take science. I am a linguist, a secretary, a scholar of religions. When i hear about DNA, Cell mutation, big bangs, i have to belive that the people who know better, are telling me correctly. in reality, it *could* all be a giant conspiracy. all i have is my belife that they are right.
Same with anyone's belive that priests are right, or that scholars are right , or that the bible or teh torah are right.
but forsomeone who belives, there is only ONE truth.
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 12:22 PM>going BACK to polythesim would in fact be de-evoultion
you and I are using 'evolution' in different senses. Evolution to me does not necessarily mean 'progression' or 'improvement' but change.
> evoultion of religion is towards monotheism and away from polytheism
I'm not so sure this is a true statement. Yes the abrahamic religions are so, but there are other more modern polytheistic religions.
> Cause they belive it to be true
Would you be willing to die for evolution being taught in schools? I know they believed it to be true, but religion and philosophy changes over time under many environmental pressures.
Why is monotheism specifically so important that jews were willing to die for it back in the day? Why not modify it to polytheism but keep other aspects static?
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 12:26 PM
to reinforce judaism has undergone a wide variety of changes over the years to include babylonian and greek influence and then outright revolutionary hassidism, yet the monotheistic component has remained static and central. -
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Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 1:29 PMduh. cause God matters.
Look, it's like saying to a scientist "well, you can accept new theoris on science, why can't you accept new ways of doing logic".
some things are central to belife. In most people's minds & hearts who are islamic, christian, or jewish, a single god is central.
asking why you continue to make something that is important, important, is circular reasoning.
They make it important to them, cause they find that it's an important thign FOR them.
what is your question? what are you after? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 2:34 PM
>some things are central to belife. In most people's minds & hearts who are islamic, christian, or jewish, a single god is central
I disagree. Central ideas change over time. The judaism of 4000 BCE is radically different in the judaism of 2005 CE in fundamental ways to include polytheism vs monotheism.
>They make it important to them, cause they find that it's an important thign FOR them.
dude are you serious.? You were just blasting me about circular reasoning! ;)
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Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 3:09 PM<dude are you serious.? You were just blasting me about circular reasoning! ;)>
btw, she is not a "dude" ;) -
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 4:42 PM
contemporary usage is no longer gender specific, dude. -
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Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 4:44 PMFine, dude. ;)
If she hasn't a problem with it, I don't.
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Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 3:26 PM>They make it important to them, cause they find that it's an important thign FOR them.
dude are you serious.? You were just blasting me about circular reasoning! ;)
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lol. not that was EXACTLY my point. yes it's ciruclar to them, because they are the ones who are beliving int it. (them being any them. xians, muslims, pagans, scientists, etc).
What i meant for you, is that asking them to explain why they think something important is important, is just asking to play in a game of circles. something like "I love you because i really like you" "why do you like me" "cause i love you'.
There is this point in "truth" land, where truth (as you personally see it) trumps all else, be it logic, emotion, or rhetorical questions. To me, asking "why is monotheism important to a religion that really thinks god must only be one being", is just asking to be told that "it's important because it's significant. it's significatn because it matters. it matters because it's truth. it's truth because it's important",
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 4:45 PM
sure sure i see what you're saying but think of this.
In order for me to risk my life for something I would usually introspect on it for a long time rather than adhering to something arbitrary.
The thing I would sacrifice for would be very meaningful. For me I would sacrifice myself for my family, but I have reasons for this. They are important to me for specific emotional as well as logical reasons.
They are symbols and our meetings are in a way ritually archetypical.
So in the same way I wonder if there is some really mind blowing awesome truth to monotheism.
One brought up was the advocacy for the intrinsic worth of the individual embodied by the supreme commander being only a single person.
I'm looking for another mind blowing pseudo weed smoking revelation.... ;-) -
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Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 4:51 PMI get what you're saying. Why was monotheism so important that they would risk their lives for it. Yea, why ?
I think we all need some weed..
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Re: Jewish Polytheism
Wed, September 21, 2005 - 8:12 AMn order for me to risk my life for something I would usually introspect on it for a long time rather than adhering to something arbitrary.
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would you?
Let me ask you this: Assume you were born in some small part of the Soviet Union where paper records are more a matter of stated policy than practiced policy. You grew up with your mom & dad, love them both, they are great parents. Someone comes along when you turn 21, and claims that your mother is not your real mother. He says to you, she faked it. and produces for you a woman who says she gave birth to you, and a man who say he was the doctor. Course, your mother and father can produce the doctor who delivered you. for each witness on either side, there is a witness to counter. There are no photos, no documents, no court rulings. jsut here say on both sides.
Who do you belive, and why?
Religion and belife in god is very much like that scinero. People belive what they belive because it's what they belive. not because of facts, or witeness, or documents. But faith. And, if someone challenges your faith, you will likely fight for it, if it's somethign you care enough about (like who your parents are).
They are important to me for specific emotional as well as logical reasons.
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and so is any given individual's religious faith. If it has helped them get trhough tough times, cause "god is looking out for me", or it has helped them understand thier place in this world "we hold dominion over the land", or it helps them understand how to rightly bring up thier children - then those are logical and emotional reasons for holding to thier faith.
Clearly, faith is not important to you. but your questiosn suggest it shoudln't be important to anyone. At least respect the jews that you claim to "hang with", by appriciating that for them, thier religion is important, emtionally and logically.
Your tendance to put down people that you do not undertand or agree with is disingenuous (sp) to your personal claims of being friends with such same. If you were my friend, and i found out you had such little regard for me and my choice of religion, it would be awefully hard to maintain a friendship with you.
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Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 1:21 PM"monotheism" isn't what they are dying for, anymore than Hindus are dying for polytheism.
They are dying for a host of reasons, one if whch includes the idea that god is one. But also for thier Tribal identiy. For thier holy book. For thier world veiw. For thier parents, adn thier parents before them, etc.
I think you simplify any real understanding of religious wars, or any other kind of war, when you make it about single issues. especially in a case like this.
In the Torah, whether you belive like some xians in literal truth or not, god tells people to kill unbelivers. That seed, while not expressed today as literal truth, does feed some of the sense of "we" (xian, jewish, or islam, which all share teh same basic godhead) are right, "you" are wrong, "we are better than you" etc.
Judiasm has not been polytheistic in a greecian or mayan sense in over 2600 years. i suspect that any wars today, being fought, are not about your "created" straw man of "why are they fighting polytheism". -
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 2:32 PM
But it isn't just for their tribal identity.
If they had changed monotheism to polytheism but kept everything else static (i.e. rest of identity) then conflict (in some cases) could have been avoided.
Therefore specifically the doctrine of god's one ness was important and this idea was a big reason why there was antagonism towards jewish people in the early days.
i.e. because they were different and no one likes people who are different from them.
I guess the historical answer might be elusive. Maybe the more relevant question then becomes why is monotheism important to you (provided you feel jewish identity is not centred on this) and what does it mean to you as any different flavor of jewish identity? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 3:37 PMIf they had changed monotheism to polytheism but kept everything else static (i.e. rest of identity) then conflict (in some cases) could have been avoided.
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I doubt that. History has proven that people (clearly yourself included) like to be "right", and like to be "better than you", and like to be "the chosen ones". so much so that i cannot think of a single group of people in the entire recorded and studied history of man that was not constantly at battle with someoen.
Israelies fought for the god YHWH vs. Ba'al when they were polytheistic. Christians fight over whether or not the wafer is really the flesh of god. Muslims fight cause "they were here on this one tiny speck of land first". Hindus fight cuase "Krishna was a great warrior". shintoists fight cause you descrated thier temple. Celtics fight cause you speak a different language. American fight cause Bush tells us to. Clansmen fight cause "niggers" are getting uppity. Fundimentalists fight cause those damned gays, and you know. Pagans fight cause "damnit that was one burning too many". I fight cause I'm tired of people trying to tell me how to think.... it's what humans do. they fight.
changing your view of god, just to please others won't stop fights. it will jut change what you fought about - and in teh meanwhile, you'll have given up one of your personal views on Truth. -
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 4:46 PM
(re: revelation).
that'll do. I got the munchies.
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Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 10:58 AM"why go from many to one"
Because as children age, the ablity to understand abstractions and complexity increases. Same can be applied in analogy (not necessarily the correct analogy) to monotheistic religions.
at one time , i see a wonderous thing and say "wow, that is special, more powerful than me, it is a god". and so i have god of teh Rock, god of the Mountian, god of this particular stream, god of that particular ocean, etc.
But as my philsophy grows, and as my ethics change (not a person, but a group of people)i begin to see the wonder in all things. God(s) begin to transcend me. I begin to have an understanding of a sky god that is more knowing (if not yet all konwing), and is powerful in all things. The earliest versions of the genesis creation stories are at this stage. The god is not yet all knowing and all powerful, and he faces off with other gods (like Ba'al, or asur) but he is also not a simplified entity.
Then, i begin to understand god as the god of all things. fully transcendent. This is the God of Solomon, the god of teh Priestly accounts of Genesis. I understand god the creator. god all knowing. god all powerful. (or various takes on that, depending on the person in question.)
a next step can become a non-transcendant god. god that is In all things, and all things that are Part of god. My understanding from one friend is that Judiasm would reject fully, this last statement. God cannot be in all things, of all things, and all things are not god. But i'm not sure I understand her, or if she is 100% sure of this. -
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Unsu...
Re: Jewish Polytheism
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 12:24 PM
don't forget you are applying western thought to this.
Some would say the idea of an anthropomorphic god is ridiculous and polytheism/pantheism makes more sense. Even polytheistic religions have monotheistic components to them in that all the gods are tied together.
I guess I'm wondering what is so important about monotheism or 'one' ness that people were willing to die for it. Was it an affirmation of the individual as reflected in the godhead, or an arbitrary static tribal assertion?
I dunno.
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thanks for this post
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 12:25 PMi think this is a good nutshell description of the abstraction of 'god concepts'. i also don't think that judaic belief cancels the last thoughts out. in fact, in my belief, the shema neatly encompasses that ideal, that all is one. saying that our god is one in fact, to me, says that hashem resides in all life, that all life is reflection of and harbor to the divine. particularly human life.
my rabbi is very fond of expanding on that concept in a very clear way that mirrors your last paragraph. so i wouldn't say that judaism would reject that school of thought. -
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Unsu...
Re: thanks for this post
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 12:27 PM
this is why i love judaism. you have rabbis who trip you out with some really cool shit.
never got this from other western religions. maybe very liberal xian churches... -
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Re: thanks for this post
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 9:04 PMI think it is because you are looking for a religioon which "trips you out" that you odn't alwasy jive with people....BROTHER.
Maybe you oughtta just stick to acid.
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Re: Jewish Polytheism
Mon, July 7, 2008 - 4:13 AMThere is vast difference between belief = faith and probability born of evidence. There was an Egyptian Pharaoh that asserted a monotheistic belief, Joseph Campbell supposes that Moses was most likely a part of his (adoptive) family rather than that of Ramses. Just an idea.
